Have You Changed The Way You Tip?

Posted on January 21st, 2011 12:02pm by Nancy Nichols
Filed under Celebrity Diners, Foodie People, Hippie revolutions, hold on to your effin hat, Procrastination is part of the creative process, Slow News Day

I was talking with a friend of mine who said a woman had hurt his pride. He’s a server in a fancy pants restaurant and he actually enjoys his job. Recently one of his customers tipped 12 percent on a bill which included a $120 bottle of wine. The total bill was $242. She left $30 and made a point of telling the server  she “doesn’t tip on the cost of the wine anymore because you already make enough on the mark-up.” So, how about you? Do you tip on wine? Subtract the tax? Or tip of total amount. I’m a 20 percent minimum on the whole tab, but I used to wait tables. Go.

72 comments

  1. I used to be in 20 percent minimum camp, but then I realized “Why?”

    My SO works in the industry (for a Michelin-starred establishment, at that), and he doesn’t even tip 20 percent regularly. In his mind, waiters don’t deserve it—and it’s true, they don’t.

    Sorry, but a waiter should work for the 20 percent if they want it. At a lot of the nicer restaurants here in NYC, the waiter isn’t even the one actually bringing you your food and drinks; they’re simply taking the order. I’m not going to give you $20 if I saw you once the whole meal, and I definitely don’t tip on alcohol.

    @ 12:08 pm on January 21, 2011

  2. I always tip 20% on the whole tab, unless the service is extremely poor. Even if the service is pretty bad I’ll usually still tip 15% as you just really never know what the issue is. And I feel guilty stiffing someone who may just be overworked.
    I also used to wait tables.

    @ 12:09 pm on January 21, 2011

  3. The bad tipper is quite mistaken about “you already make enough on the mark-up.” The server makes NOTHING on the mark-up (the restaurant owner gets that), but normally has to tip out to bus boys, bartenders, etc. a percentage of their total sales including wine. That 12 percent tip will end up being less than 10 percent, and that’s not acceptable.

    @ 12:11 pm on January 21, 2011

  4. As a former server, I never got a dime of the markup on a bottle of wine. The owner? Sure. Me? Not so much.

    If you’re going to follow that logic, why tip at all? After all, the food also receives somewhat of a markup.

    Bottom line: If you can’t afford to tip on the whole tab (which, btw, you’re not just tipping for the food and beverage, you’re tipping for the service itself), don’t go out. But if you can afford a $120 bottle of wine, especially if it was presented properly, tip.

    What a lot of people don’t realize is that, depending on the restaurant, servers must also share their tips with any possible combination of other people – bartenders, kitchen staff, busboys.

    That being said, I’m also a little tougher on waitstaff, too. If you want to wrest 20% or more from me, do that job. If you are merely competent, but don’t go out of the way, you’re getting 15%. If you’re horrible, give me food poisoning because you take 45 minutes to bring me my food, and I have to go looking for you to get my check? You get nothing.

    @ 12:11 pm on January 21, 2011

  5. Twenty percent minimum as long as service is decent. Even with wine. More if the check is under 15 bucks.

    Nancy, it’s too bad your friend probably had to hold her tongue and smile instead of telling the idiot patron that servers don’t make anything on wine mark up. What a disconnect from reality.

    Side note: I know you’ve posted about tipping before. How about talking about restaurants that insist on using “complimentary” valet and provide no alternate parking, forcing you to watch a valet park your car 20 feet away that you could have done yourself or walking two blocks to park your car yourself. The number of offenders is too numerous to mention, Saint Ann being the most recent culprit. (Sorry this is a big pet peeve of mine)

    @ 12:16 pm on January 21, 2011

  6. I always tip 20% off the pre-tax tab, much to my husband’s chagrin.

    @ 12:17 pm on January 21, 2011

  7. If I’ve spent as much or more on wine as food, the tip only approaches 20% if the actual wine service was good. If the waiter had nothing to do with my selection of a nicer bottle and didn’t know how to present or pour it, why should I tip him more?

    But yes, I do constantly have to remind myself that the ridiculous markups are not the servers fault.

    @ 12:21 pm on January 21, 2011

  8. Bethany summed up a lot of my feelings much more eloquently than I did.

    And yes, she’s correct that tips are mostly pooled and divided, percentage-wise, among servers, baristas, bartenders, etc. Never have heard of kitchen staff getting tips, though. (Even though they should.)

    @ 12:25 pm on January 21, 2011

  9. I normally give 18 to 20% of the entire check. That being said, it’s rare for us to have more than a glass of nice wine.

    @ 12:35 pm on January 21, 2011

  10. I don’t often drink wine, but I generally tip 20% on the whole tab. From there, it depends on the service. Exceptional service gets more, poor service less.

    @ 12:44 pm on January 21, 2011

  11. L – Apparently if the cooks got most of your orders right, we had to tip them. But that was just at this one place I worked. Briefly. When I discovered I could bartend there and get a percentage of the tips from the servers AND have a tip jar for the bar, well, I did the math.

    @ 12:46 pm on January 21, 2011

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    @ 12:46 pm on January 21, 2011

  13. And is there any reason to tip at a place like Village Burger Bar, where you order and pay at the counter, then someone brings food to your table but doesn’t return afterward? Or how about buffets, where staff just brings and refills drinks? Surely not 20%!

    @ 12:47 pm on January 21, 2011

  14. I tip according to service received. Generally 20% or more. Speaking as someone who has worked in many kitchens I have never been tipped out.
    I always try and remember that as patrons and customers we aren’t always perfect on our end and can be very picky and demanding. Waitstaff have to take that head on most of them deserve 20%.

    @ 12:53 pm on January 21, 2011

  15. I have worked in almost every aspect of food service, from washing dishes to delivering product, managing a kitchen, to serving and hostessing. I always tip 20%. I agree with much of what Bethany says, but I think everyone can have an off day. As someone else said above, many restaurants pool tips, and I have never seen a tip off an expensive bottle of wine come my way. I am also glad that I never served your friend’s customer, she sounds as if she has never worked in a service job in her life.

    @ 12:58 pm on January 21, 2011

  16. As a single person, I generally go out with a group of girls for dinner and we split the check evenly. We do 20% across the board, for all food and including bottles of wine and drinks. However, I’d be interested to hear how others handle check-splitting if, for example, one person doesn’t drink, and others order expensive bottles of wine and some order just one or two drinks. Cheers!

    @ 12:59 pm on January 21, 2011

  17. The problem with the whole tipping thing is that people don’t realize (or don’t care) that servers, bartenders, busboys etc don’t even make a liveable wage from the restaurant itself, they have to depend on tips to make even minimum wage. And if the restaurant system changed in this country so that waiters made more per hour, who do you think that cost gets passed on to? The customer, of course. Food and alcohol prices would go up, more people would be out of work because restaurants couldn’t afford to staff so many, etc.

    So if you can’t afford to tip or don’t “believe” in it or whatever, get take out or dine in.

    @ 1:15 pm on January 21, 2011

  18. Is there any sense in wondering how all this got started anyway? It doesn’t even make sense. The waiter may be the face of my restaurant experience but the food and drink are actually prepared by someone else. I would much rather tip them, but they get a salary. The waiter is a glorified messenger relaying my order to the kitchen. At many places they no longer even bring the food, there are runners for that. Is refilling my water glass really worth 20% of the total? Oh wait, the bus boy does that. Sorry all you bus boys out there. And, like Alan, do I tip at Ghengis Grill where I fill my own bowl then give it to the cook? Yes, a wait staff brings the bowl back but I did more than half the work. No one has said what a wait person does that is worth 20% of the bill. I do tip 20% for good service but I’m starting to wonder why. Where is the value when a cook or bartender may have been way more responsible for making my experience good?

    @ 1:19 pm on January 21, 2011

  19. This is what I’ve never really understood… I’ve had better service at a Chili’s than some of the higher priced restaurants in this town. But, someone who waits tables at Chili’s is doing just as much work as someone who waits tables at Abacus or even some place like The Porch. So why do we pay based on the cost of the food & drink and not the actual service? A $10 burger or a $50 burger still requires just 1 trip to bring it to the table but I’m supposed to pay $8 more in tip for that. Now with that said, I always tip 20% on the full total.

    @ 1:23 pm on January 21, 2011

  20. ladyinred, you’re wrong. Busboys, kitchen staff, bartenders, baristas, etc., make more than minimum wage. In many cases, MUCH more.

    Like I said, baristas and bartenders get a percentage of pooled tips as well—typically around 10 percent.

    @ 1:28 pm on January 21, 2011

  21. The tip should be on the total tab. The markup on wine isn’t that much more than the markup on food, soda, or beer. Just because the markup is high doesn’t mean that it’s all going to profit, just ask The Green Room.

    High end restaurants cost a lot of money to build out, and something has to cover the debt incurred to get those doors open. The overhead, the cooks and other staff all cost a lot of money as well. On a busy night a high end restaurant will rake in good profits, but they may lose money every other night of the week.

    The bigger question is why is the cheapskate punishing the waiter for a decision taken by the ownership? It sounds like this person has just found a lame excuse to be cheap.

    For the record, I tend to tip 20%, but I have no problem tipping less, or even zero, if the service isn’t up to expectations. I consider them working on commission, and their commission drops as they screw up an order or they leave a drink empty for long periods of time.

    @ 1:32 pm on January 21, 2011

  22. Bethany – FYI, requiring tip outs to kitchen staff, hostesses or management has been ruled illegal, and there are attorneys advertising in the Observer’s classisfieds looking for restaurant staff who’ve been robbed in this manner. In todays industry it’s a practice that comes with a big bite on the back end.

    Now a restaurant CAN charge a “service charge” and distribute it in any manner they wish, however the state of Texas requires that a service charge be accompanied by 8.25% sales tax on top. This is typically done in off-site catering where management receives part of the service charge as a commission for planning the party.

    While the story of the 12% tip sounds harsh, I know plenty of people in this industry who would be happy to have a job, let alone if a group came in and spent $240. It is the new normal.

    @ 1:36 pm on January 21, 2011

  23. I tip 20% on total tab, including alcohol and tax, as long as service is unoffensive. I tip more than 20% on total tab if the service is fantastic (fortunately for my bank account, I don’t have to do this very often). To be honest, the main reason I tip 20% as opposed to any other amount is that I suck at math, and 20% is the easiest number for my alcohol-saturated brain to calculate.

    @ 1:44 pm on January 21, 2011

  24. Randy said this… but I didn’t notice anyone refuting his argument, so I’ll present it again.

    Servers don’t do any more work delivering a $500 bottle of wine as compared to a $50 bottle. So why should they make an extra $90? (assuming a 20% tip)

    this has nothing to do with whether the tips get distributed, what the base wage is, or the markup on bottles of wine.

    @ 1:51 pm on January 21, 2011

  25. They don’t do anymore work bringing you out a $8 hamburger versus a $50 piece of steak, either.

    @ 2:03 pm on January 21, 2011

  26. @ Gavlist
    So here is where the unfairness of the system comes into play. Say you order a $50 dollar bottle of wine and tip $10 on it. Typically, the server takes that ten dollars and gives 2 percent (of the sale, not the tip) to the bartender, so that’s $1, and another 2 or 3 percent to the busboys (of total sales) so that’s another $1. So the server makes $8. Not bad, you think.
    But following the logic of some, since it doesn’t take any more effort to bring a more expensive wine to the table, if you buy a $500 bottle of wine and tip $10, the server STILL has to give the bartender 2 percent of that sale, so that’s $10, and STILL has to give the bussers 2 percent, so another $10. And you’ve decided not to tip on the wine, just the service, so the server now has to turn around and pay his or her support staff an extra ten dollars out of their pocket because you don’t believe in tipping on price. Way to go.
    Again, if you can’t afford to tip on food or drinks, don’t go out.

    And @L, sure, some places pay their bussers and bar staff more. I am a waitress at a higher end place in uptown and our bussers make 4.50 an hour and our bar staff gets 2.13. They are expected to make enough in tips to cover it. Go figure. I know a ton of places like this.

    @ 2:08 pm on January 21, 2011

  27. ladyinred is right – People often don’t understand how the tipping works, when you go to dole it out to the other folks you’re supposed to. It’s all based on percentage of sales, not percentage of tips you bring in. Same with the taxes on your tips (at least, it was in Arkansas). You are taxed on the percentage of your receipts.

    @ 2:13 pm on January 21, 2011

  28. @ladyinred I understand that’s how the system works in many restaurants, but I didn’t create it.
    If the tip is supposed to be for the service I received from the staff, I should pay what I feel is appropriate for that. The convoluted/unfair way they distribute really doesn’t affect what I think is a fair tip on the service I received. Unless restaurants have signs up telling you how things work there, how are you supposed to even know?

    @Bethany 2 things regarding the $8 burger vs $50 steak. In my experience, wait staff are almost always more knowledgeable & helpful about the menu than the wine list. If a waiter or sommelier helped w/ my selection, I tip more on the wine price than if not. Also, the variation in cost of menu items vs wines is pretty different. Very few restaurants have an $8 burger and a $50 steak, but lots of places have $15-20 bottles and $150-200 bottles. If the waiter had nothing to do with my buying something on high end of the list, why should he get an extra $10-20?

    @ 2:29 pm on January 21, 2011

  29. But that’s not a fair comparison, then.

    To make your comparison work, you would also have to be ordering something off the menu with no help or suggestions whatsoever from the waitstaff. Only then would you have an across the board comparison. So, if you ordered that $50 steak with no input from the server, and they brought it to you, would you tip on a percentage based on a cheaper item on the menu, or would you tip based on the cost of your actual meal?

    @ 2:37 pm on January 21, 2011

  30. I think it matters because of the math. If you’re ordering wine that’s 2-3x the cost of the food, your tip percentage on that bottle has a much bigger effect on the overall tip.

    All of this being said, unless the service was particularly bad, I still don’t go below 15%. But if I spend more than 1.5x or so on the wine, I usually start at 16-18% or so and adjust on quality of service.

    @ 2:45 pm on January 21, 2011

  31. Never an excuse to tip less than 20% unless the service is horrible. Come on folks. The service industry does not profit from the markup a restaurant charges on ANYTHING! If you enjoy your dining experience, no matter what it is, reward those that took care of you. They depend on you for a living.

    @ 2:53 pm on January 21, 2011

  32. @ladyinred I’m in NYC, not Dallas any longer, so perhaps it’s still kosher in D to pay bus boys and bartenders below minimum wage. Not the case here in NYC. Most bartenders I know make $10+ per hour plus their pooled tips.

    Also, I do think you’re making an unfair assumption that those who don’t tip “well” or don’t want to tip “well” can’t afford to go out. I think you’ll find just the opposite to be true.

    (Of course, I think that the world would be infinitely easier if restaurants switched over to Thomas Keller’s model of “service included,” but that’s a different issue entirely.)

    @ 2:58 pm on January 21, 2011

  33. So for all of you who have commented on minimum wages and waitstaff needing to make a living, and with 20% pretty much the standard (with exceptions noted) and appearing not to be enough, how much do you think a diner should tip for their meal in order to be “fair”: 30%? 35%? 50%? I don’t think customers at restaurants should feel the burden to pay salaries for the restaurant staff. I would be happy to see a VAT, and if it increases the price of my meal too much, then I will choose not to eat there, but at least I won’t feel guilty for thinking that 20% of my tab is somehow not enough or fair.
    And as a person wanting to enjoy a meal out, I don’t really want to “care or realize” what the busboy makes, and to not be made to feel callous or mean by not doing so.

    @ 3:02 pm on January 21, 2011

  34. I tip 20% + on the bottom line of the check. Period. A few extra dollars from me is not going to hurt my life but a few extra dollars to a waiter could help with their life.

    @ 3:06 pm on January 21, 2011

  35. Beda, was just thinking along the same lines.

    In what other transactions am I expected to think about the pay structure of the merchant. “OMG, don’t buy things on sale at Best Buy, because the sales guys won’t make as much.”

    @ 3:08 pm on January 21, 2011

  36. I typically do 15-25% of the total. I’d say about 90% of the time, they get 18-20% depending on how I’m rounding in my head. If there is excessive waiting (being busy is not my fault, especially if I made a reservation) or generally a poor attitude, you’ll get 15%. If my wife and I have a discussion about “going above and beyond” you’ll likely get 25%. It’s pretty simple. What’s not simple is where that money goes after I leave. It’s not the same at every restaurant and at some restaurants it may be split among many more employees. All I have to go on is the totality of the service experience.

    @ 3:13 pm on January 21, 2011

  37. As stated above, I always tip around 20% on the whole tab, but I agree with previous posters that this system is very flawed.
    In the end it is unfair to both the customer and the waiter.
    The customer is supposed to figure out how much is ok to tip, used to be 15, now 20%, and not everyone does the same, so people who can afford quite bit more than me might tip actually less.
    The waiter on the other hand is barely paid a base salary and depends on the tip, which they sometimes despite hard work not receive.

    A higher base salary and then a small tip for great service would be better and in the end fairer for the waiter and the customer.

    One reason, I think, why some people undertip is that when they go out they see the prices and think they can easily afford the meal, only to then realize, oops, instead of splurging on an $80 dollar meal, it’ll actually be closer to $100 if they want to reward good service.

    TLS – it might not make a big difference to you to pay a few bucks more, but not all of us have a lot of disposable income and have to save up for that one nice meal a month. Here, it might make a huge difference.

    @ 3:19 pm on January 21, 2011

  38. When I’m splitting the check I always tip 20% rather than get into a discussion about how much it should be. When I’m paying solo at a nice restaurant, I pay 20% on the food and 10% on the wine and it is almost always the equivalent of 15% of the total. When wine is marked up 3 times over retail (3 1/2 to 4x over restaurant cost), I feel no obligation to pay a 20% tip just because. I also pay way more than 20% for breakfasts and lunches since I estimate what I think the proper dollar amount is for the service I got. It is interesting to see how many commenters equate tip amount with some guilt quotient. Get over it. Pay for what you got and forget the rules. The rules change as people allow them to be changed. Am I the only one that remembers that just a few years ago the standard tip was 15%? Now there’s heavy guilt coming down if you don’t tip 20%. Who decided that?

    @ 3:34 pm on January 21, 2011

  39. I absolutely do not tip on tax period, even if I’m tipping 40-50%, it’s on the pre tax total. Tipping on tax is a scam.

    @ 3:48 pm on January 21, 2011

  40. @runDMC, I remember when 10 percent was the standard tip! It just keeps going up, so I absolutely agree with the poster above (Beda) who questioned where does it stop? 30 percent? 50 percent?

    My favorite most recent experience was the food delivery man who complained, to my face, about a $1.50 tip on an $11.88 order. He tried to tell me that other people were tipping him $3 and $4. Sorry dude, but I’m not tipping you 40 percent!

    @ 3:52 pm on January 21, 2011

  41. What @L. and @runDMC said. Where does it end? Full disclosure: I am a former waiter.

    @ 3:57 pm on January 21, 2011

  42. Tips started out as an acronym for “To Insure Proper Service”. We’ve obviously moved far away from that if posters with a serious face can bring up paying kitchen staff with tips, much less a waiter. I’m ready to see restaurant owners taking more responsibility in paying ALL of their employees better salaries, and if your waiter gives you good service, you give him/her something on top (with no expectation of a percentage; I also remember when 15% was considered a good tip).

    @ 4:40 pm on January 21, 2011

  43. Some of the comments here are hilarious. The waiter is glorified messenger? Are you kidding? Lots of chefs can put out good food, but it’s the service that makes a restaurant special and memorable. There are books written on the subject. We go out to be served and eat good food.

    I know the tip is shared by all the service staff. To say that you tip less because the waiter has help and therefore does not deserve a full tip is nonsense.

    I tip on the whole tab, generally more than 15% and around 20% depending on how good the service was and how the numbers add up. If deserved, I will go north of 20%.

    And I agree, if you can’t afford or don’t wish to tip 15% (at least) on the full bill, including wine and alcohol (assuming good service), you should not be at that restaurant. You need to take it down a notch so that you are comfortable paying for the bill and an appropriate tip. If that means ordering a cheaper bottle of wine, so be it.

    @ 4:42 pm on January 21, 2011

  44. Most of the people above have pretty much said what I would have said. So, nuff said.

    @ 4:51 pm on January 21, 2011

  45. Actually, Lee, your argument makes no sense. I’m totally comfortable paying $275 per person at Per Se and a bottle of wine or corkage, because service is INCLUDED. In that situation, I can leave more if I like (and I have) and feel the service has warranted it.

    It’s the sense of entitlement for a tip that has turned me and some other diners off. It’s not a matter of money.

    @ 4:52 pm on January 21, 2011

  46. L – I’m not accusing you or anyone of being cheap. I know it’s not always about money. I agree with you that in a place like Per Se, it’s great that gratuity is included. It’s always easier that way. The problem is that under the Fair Labor Standards Act, employers can pay servers (or anyone who makes at least $30 a month in tips) as little as $2.13 an hour, much less than minimum wage. The tip is not an entitlement, it’s part of the wage calculation. This is true even if the server splits his/her tips with other staff! There is also some assumption of tips earned by a server based on actual says. I would prefer that more restaurants manage quality service and put staff on salaries in order to include service in the price, but it just isn’t the case and holding the system against the server doesn’t seem fair to me.

    (I worked as a bus boy in 1982-1983)

    @ 9:07 pm on January 21, 2011

  47. This has been a very interesting read; of note all of the restaurant service staff that make the comment “if you can’t afford to tip, don’t go out”. What if I and all of the others diners took you up on that? Where would you be, looking for work, when your restaurant closes? This tone and attitude from service staff is what drives people to reduce their compensation to you for your service.

    @ 9:31 am on January 22, 2011

  48. @ Idascha: Oh please! The tone and attitude of CUSTOMERS is much worse than that of people in the service industry.

    Some of the holier-than-thou, he’s lucky to have a job comments on here are just sad justifications for being cheap.

    No matter what you are purchasing in life, you can always come up with convoluted reasons for paying less, whether it’s because the shoes were made by child laborers overseas or because you think Bill Gates already has too much money.

    I agree 100% with the statement that if you can’t afford to tip properly, you really shouldn’t be out taking up space at a restaurant. Enough with basically being a cheapskate jerk – sheesh!

    And back to the beginning: if someone is ordering $120 bottles of wine, then you KNOW they can afford to tip properly. And after they drive home in their Lexus, they should get down on their marble entryway floor in their 4500sf house with a game room and media center and thank God that they CAN afford it, when so many can’t.

    Really, what ever happened to being considerate to your fellow man?

    @ 10:36 am on January 22, 2011

  49. @ldascha
    If you stayed home because you couldn’t afford to tip, we’d be in the exact same boat since you weren’t tipping us anyway. Plus, we never know what a tip is until AFTER you’ve left, so how did your cheapness affect the service, exactly?

    @ 11:27 am on January 22, 2011

  50. I don’t drink, and my friends know that, so when we pool checks, the food and alcohol are pooled separately.

    I tip 15% and go up from there *if* the service is great.

    The idea that “if you can’t afford to tip, don’t eat out” is the mantra of the restaurant who doesn’t need customers…

    @ 12:11 pm on January 22, 2011

  51. @ldascha
    If your boss stopped paying you, would you care if he told you not to show up to work?

    @L
    Do you feel entitled to your paycheck every two weeks?

    @ 12:25 pm on January 22, 2011

  52. @louis
    Again, this is from the perspective of waitstaff. No matter how much the markup is on that steak or bottle of wine, do you not understand that service staff don’t get paid unless you tip? They don’t see a dime of that 3x markup. So from a waitstaff perspective, spending 2 + hours of your night on a table that can’t afford to tip or doesn’t believe in the system is a gigantic waste of time. I get it — I don’t love spending an extra ten or fifteen bucks when I go out to eat, but again, if the service was built in you are going to spend that much anyway, and if restaurants have to start paying servers hourly than your cost as a consumer is going up anyway. Lose, lose, lose. Just pay the 15-20 percent and be done with it.

    @ 1:31 pm on January 22, 2011

  53. @ladyinred – Where did I say I didn’t tip? My base is 15% and I go up from there if the service is great. (However, I am *not* tipping on alcohol I don’t drink.)

    @ 2:01 pm on January 22, 2011

  54. This is circular debate about a flawed system.

    Clearly there’s something wrong with fully tipping a server on an expensive bottle of wine. Especially when the server offered little or nothing in the selection process. However, more than likely, that server will have to tip out to the kitchen, bar staff and back waiters a percentage of his/her sales regardless of the tip. That’s just one of many flaws in the current $2.13 & tips way of doing things.

    I firmly believe that if a restauranteur would pay normal wages to waiters with the opportunities for raises and bonuses we would all benefit.

    Sure, menu prices would increase. Probably significantly. But probably not more than 20%.

    I am convinced that this would put more emphasis on the the restauranteur taking ownership in the education/training of the entire staff. Essentially, in the current system, the waiters are employees of the diners who feel obligated to tip them, regardless of the service/dining experience.

    A waiter’s focus would then be geared towards accumulating hours and tenure, to make more money. Hours and tenure (and raises and bonuses) could be rewards based off job performance.

    Sure, it may not be as lucrative for beginning waiters as it is now…but frankly, it shouldn’t be. Most waiters are rewarded handsomely for putting nothing into their trade. They’re happy to take your tip for the $150 bottle of wine you’re ordering, but probably don’t know much about the wine. They’re happy to regurgitate the fish of the day, but probably couldn’t tell you why Copper River salmon are as regarded as they are.

    And the restauranteurs don’t care because they don’t have to pay for service staff, they don’t have to pay to have extra staff or outside help in properly training/educating the service personnel, and most importantly, the restaurant is absolved of much of the blame regarding service issues.

    And if the diners were re-trained to include service as part of the restaurant’s responsibility and less of an individual’s, they could then decide only if they want to further reward an establishment with their hard earned dollars without the guilt associated with tipping.

    And if service was poor? Complain to a manager, accept any possible discounts and leave. Then the management staff can track down the real issue and punish accordingly.

    There’s much more to this, but I’ll leave it at that. I’m surprised that more restaurants don’t consider this approach.

    Thoughts?

    @ 2:03 pm on January 22, 2011

  55. Okay, how about a thread around how much to tip a bartender. There have been some complete tools behind the bar (e.g. the Slip Inn) who think they are entitled to a 20% tip for beer or mixed drinks served at the bar. Usually only an issue for me if I’m buying for friends with a tab. I have no problem with 20% for service in a restaurant, but for bar service? I think not?

    @ 2:25 pm on January 22, 2011

  56. Sorry, after reading the statement: “Most waiters are rewarded handsomely for putting nothing into their trade.”…I found it hard to care about the rest. At least until the parts about tipping out of guilt and accepting possible discounts.

    All just too funny. And too sad.

    To me the whole thing seems to boil down to a certain elitism – that people being waited on think they are better than the people waiting on them. So as a result, those overpaid, underworked “servers” should be damn glad to have the joy of refilling my water glass while trying not to step on my kid who have allowed to run wild throughout the restaurant.

    And I want a free appetizer because the steak I ate 3/4 of was a bit dry.

    @ 2:37 pm on January 22, 2011

  57. Sammy, you’re missing the point. And if you didn’t read that defensively, you might have understood where I was coming from.

    And by the way, I came from the restaurant business. In a way, I’m still there. And I made a killing. Especially for someone with no higher education. And no prior training. I made a lot of money and I carved myself a career from my experience. And I’m not too proud to be able to see both sides of this argument.

    There is no doubt a serious skill in managing a full section of inconsiderate jerks on a busy Friday night in $20-$30 entree restaurant. At the same time though, it would be easier if it wasn’t a game of turning tables as fast as possible so a waiter can get more tips. We should all be able to recognize how there is a flaw in the fact that we would rather dissuade diners from coffee so we can get another turn.

    Hear me out…If that money didn’t matter to the waiter, then they could pace their section easier. Diners could sit, relax, reflect on how good their meal was. Sure, the restaurant might lose some dollars for the night, but more than likely they’ll have more loyal clientele. This is just one example of how the working-for-tips scenario is not desirable for the diner. The customer. The one paying. And spare us how you’re the exception. You may be, but you should also know I’m right about the vast majority.

    I’m not saying my idea is the best one, but it’s something to consider. It might take the diners vs waiters battle out of the equation.

    @ 3:03 pm on January 22, 2011

  58. Cute + legs + body + nice + service = 33%

    Guys = 20% if great service

    Subtractions made where necessary

    @ 4:47 pm on January 22, 2011

  59. Why would you not tip on a bar tab? If your drink is 4 or 5 bucks, leave a dollar or two per drink. Not too much out of your pocket, and believe me, bartenders know who tips and who doesn’t. You will get much, much better service, and if you are a regular who tips well even a round or two on the house.
    This whole idea of “they aren’t working hard enough to get my money” is such BS. Bartenders (and servers) don’t just take your order and bring you food. They come in early, set up the restaurant, clean, polish your glasses and silverware and often do a lot of other drudge work for 2.13 and hour before you even sit down, all so you can have a pleasant dining experience. Bartending is not at all glamourous; it’s not like the movie Cocktail where you’re just rolling in cash when you leave the building right at 2am. You are the first to get there and the last to leave, cutting fruit, juicing, stocking, cleaning (all BEFORE the shift) then dealing with entitled customers, drunk bachelorette parties who want SHOTS, LIKE NOW! having to decide if and when to cut someone off because if they get in a drunk driving accident you can be found at fault for overserving…geez, just leave the 20 percent. And if you think the bartender is an a-hole, go somewhere else. Problem solved.

    @ 4:50 pm on January 22, 2011

  60. I think the standard should be a flat tip regardless of the cost of the bottle of wine. For example, a recent dinner at craft ended up being about $900 for 4 of us with $500 or so on wine, $200 or so on food and the remainder towards tip. If we had the same food and had iced tea instead of wine, the same effort would have to be put forth by the waitstaff. I would have no problem paying a flat fee of $10-15 dollars for a bottle of wine to be served. Let’s assume 5 glasses-at $2-3 dollars per glass, most bartenders would be happy with that tip. That being said, the waiter at craft “tipped” us on a couple bottles that were well priced and we definitely considered this in his tip. It is the extras that make the difference, regardless of the cost of a bottle of wine.

    @ 10:49 pm on January 22, 2011

  61. I agree with Justin and would like to see a post about forced valet parking. It’s one of my biggest pet peeves.

    I don’t usually exclude alcohol from tips, but then we don’t drink $100+ bottles of wine, so the difference is negligible. Our standard tip is 15% and the current debate about whether 20% is the minimum acceptable gets me very annoyed. Prices of food have gone up, so tips have in turn gone up. What’s the rationale for thinking diners should tip 5% more? Service hasn’t improved 5%; if it had, people might have a point.

    I do like the suggestion of a flat tip per bottle of wine, not that it could ever be realistically implemented. Do servers do more work to pour a $300 bottle than a $30 bottle? I think not. So the debate is not out of place; I can definitely see the side of those arguing against a full tip on the price of wine, even though as I said, we don’t personally exclude wine from the total we tip on.

    I also think that servers who complain about being taxed on a percent of their sales as a reason for expecting a minimum tip, are on very thin ice unless they can look me in the eye and say they declare every dollar that goes into their pocket on their taxes. I have no issue with tipping and although I’d prefer a different system, I accept the one we have and we tip accordingly. But I would like to know that the people whose salaries I am paying are actually being responsible and honest citizens with that income. For those who are (and in my experience, you are rare), I salute you.

    @ 1:32 am on January 23, 2011

  62. I still think that if you are at Craft (like Kam – I’m not picking on Kam, just using as an example) and can afford to spend almost $1000 for a dinner, then waffling on how much tip a server “deserves” because you spent this or that much on a bottle of wine and they didn’t have to “work” any harder, is just being cheap.

    @ 11:22 am on January 23, 2011

  63. Okay, that DOES sound like I’m picking on Kam. Sorry!

    @ 11:23 am on January 23, 2011

  64. Wylie, by asking me if I feel entitled to my paycheck, you’ve just exposed the very flaw that a few people here are pointing out: tips should be just that—tips, not the “meat” of someone’s check.

    P.S. I am entitled to my paycheck because I work very hard for it. A server who doesn’t work very hard shouldn’t be entitled to 20 percent of my $150 tab just because it’s “standard”.

    P.P.S. Like I said in an earlier comment, I’m not just some idiot bystander either. I’m lucky to be exposed to the ins and outs of a very good (like I said, Michelin-starred) restaurant, where a lot of the servers make out like bandits for very minimal work.

    @ 5:39 pm on January 23, 2011

  65. I have waited tables and bar-tended, and I tip 20% minimum, regardless of service (unless it’s really, really bad). Waiting on people for a living sucks, and just because your waiter doesn’t do a hot job one evening doesn’t mean you should tip them 10% or less. Sometimes waitstaff members just have off nights, or sometimes the people they’re waiting on are complete jerks.

    And if you are one of those people that think waiters put nothing into their trade, you’re probably also one of the jerks. Seriously, be nice.

    @ 11:51 am on January 24, 2011

  66. @Emily- most servers these days get paid with credit cards and have to tip out, so all that tip money is calculated into their paychecks, and thus could probably “look you in the eye” and tell you that it does indeed go to the IRS like it’s supposed to.

    @L. This is a blog about the realities here in Dallas, Texas. I’m not sure how many servers even at high end ones make upwards of $10 an hour and my S/O works at one, so I can tell you, that it’s just not a reality here in the Big D. Most of her servers cane make upwards of $500 a weekend night in tips and yes, that is the “meat” of their paychecks considering $3 an hour for a six hour shift isn’t going pay anyone’s bills.

    If you have a problem with the system, work to change that. I don’t like turn signal laws, but you what? I still have to pay the fine when I get pulled over for not using my turn signal.

    @ 11:54 am on January 24, 2011

  67. I once did it all but be a general manager…my guess is most commentors haven’t had fine dining across the pond…by that I mean service is included usually & very professional…over here…usually not so much…do you tip Uncle Sam when you pay your taxes? If a server does nothing more than pull the cork [or unscrew the cap], why is that deserving of 20% regardless of the cost of the bottle…jus sayin’…byo restaurants essential call that a corkage fee

    @ 12:03 pm on January 24, 2011

  68. In France, a 15% service tip is included in the price (as well as the VAT). Then if people are satisfied with the service they usually leave a few Euros on the table.

    In Dallas, I usually leave 15%-18% for a good service and around 20%+ for a not everyday service.

    @ 4:06 pm on January 24, 2011

  69. I tip 20% pretax and on any normal bottle of wine. If the service is good. I dont think they deserve tip on what uncle sam makes. And if I order an extremely nice bottle of wine I might do 18%… they didnt crush the grapes, they are doing the same service then if I had ordered a cheaper bottle so why should they make more? If it is terrible service 15% on food alone. It has to be bad and all the servers fault, like having to chase them down and or get up and get our own drinks because they ignore you for 30 min. I think 20% pretax is generous enough since we usually get an app, drinks, meal. Our bills are on the high side.

    @ 10:12 am on January 25, 2011

  70. I routinely leave about 20% on the total tab for good service because this is the system we have and I know that waiters are trying to make a living. Fair enough. However, the sense of entitlement and anger by waitstaff directed at the dining public everytime this topic is raised is fairly insulting. If you really hate the job and the tipping system as practiced by the average American, find something else to do.

    @ 5:43 pm on January 25, 2011

  71. Most people don’t enjoy their jobs too much…and a lot of waitstaff are students, have a day job or lost their job and need to make cash immediately just to get by. Most are usually actively looking for another job. It’s not as easy as “find something else to do.” Sense of entitlement…what? That’s the way the system works…it sucks, yes, but as waiters aren’t paid a liveable wage by their employer than yes, I guess they are “entitled” to tips. You know, so they don’t end up on the street.

    Anyone who has to deal with the general public routinely knows how awful those jobs are…retail, customer service, etc. If your income was based on the whims of diners you might feel a bit differently.

    @ 6:30 pm on January 25, 2011

  72. [...] was a great question that got lost in the fierce debate over our recent post on tipping habits.  Disher “Alan” asks if there is any reason to tip when dining at a fast casual [...]

    @ 2:59 pm on January 26, 2011